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Rania. · 01-01-10

But with the weather you speak bestest and bestest I suppose.

kotsis1 · 02-01-10

Morning guys,long time no hear.

I was occupied all day,so excuse my unexplainable disapperance.

Don't know exactly from where to start.Thoughts are all over my head.At the moment I am watching a series on the TV.

Ask me whatever you want,I am all ears.But I can't write long messages according to your above-posed questions and comments...

:no1:

g@ngster95 · 02-01-10

excuse me, do you believe that a number of 3000 words is enough for the proficiency?

Lita Athens · 02-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Crookshanks:
Ooops, I said

The "the" should be removed.

I would very much like to answer to your post right now, but I gotta leave. I will just say that I am dissapointed it is something I just didn' t understand (the "contradiction" you said), rather than an expression that I didn' t know and that I might learn.
-----------------------------------------

The donkey said to the cock that he' s got a big head.

Good morning guys! How are you today?

Dear Crookshanks,
It doesn't matter that you didn't get the chance to answer all my questions... I understand I've asked a lot...
Anyway, though, when you'll have the time (and the courage

), please answer to my post, especially to the questions concerning the way you manage to use two native languages, because it's an issue liguisticaly interesting for me...!!!
Kind regards,
Lita Athens

qwertyuiop · 02-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Rania.:
But with the weather you speak bestest and bestest I suppose.

Ι am doesn't dizagreeing.

teol20 · 02-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από g@ngster95:
excuse me, do you believe that a number of 3000 words is enough for the proficiency?

I don't think so.
A sufficient number of words according to CEFR:6000-8000

Lita Athens · 02-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από qwertyuiop2:
Ι am doesn't dizagreeing.

Oh.. Come on...! Stop it!

Crookshanks · 02-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Lita Athens:
From what you have mentioned, I can easily assume that you're a native Dutch speaker, therefore a bilingual student...

Approximately. I 'm afraid that I might disappoint you a little. I speak Dutch quite well, especially after starting my attempts to improve it. But I still have a lot to learn. In fact, I do better at English, and I am sorry for that, but that' s the truth. My language capacity in Dutch isn' t much more than the one of a ten-year-old child, maybe even less. After my sister was born, I stopped having much contact with the language, you know. She has a genetic disorder called PWS, so she couldn' t really speak Dutch (Greek took over). She now begins to learn a few words, but just a little bit, like a foreign learner, you know. I actually sometimes think that I might also be like a foreign Dutch speaker, but then I remind myself that I started speaking Dutch before Greek, and that I still think in Dutch when I am talking in Dutch.

I'd like to ask you then if it's difficult for a foreigner to start taking dutch lessons... is it a difficult language in general or is it easy for someone to reach a high level of competence in this particular language?

Well, I wouldn' t say it' s easy. Dutch is a bit similar to German, though with simpler grammar rules. It is, in my opinion, a "soft"-to-listen-to language, in contrast to German, which sounds a bit harsh to the human ear. However, bear in mind that this is subjective.
It is not very difficult, either, though. It has standardised phonetic values, and a clear syntax. Of course, I have never learnt Dutch this way (with grammar/syntax rules), so I am being subjective here, too.

In addition, I would really like to ask you if you faced any difficulties at school, due to the fact that you're bilingual... Was it easy for you to speak both greek and dutch fluently? I'm posing this question beacause after taking linguistics' courses at the university, I became very interested in the way bilingual children behave (regarding the aspects of a language, of course) in non-bilingual schools and in a non-bilingual environment outside their homes... In other, more simlpe and less "scientific", words, did you ever face any problems like confusing greek and dutch words or expressions? Are there times you prefer to speak in Dutch, for example, rather than in greek?

Oh, I alwayes prefer to talk in Dutch, so that I improve it. Well, I did have some difficulties at first, I had learnt the alphabet from a Fisher-Price game, and I already knew it when I went to primary school, but I had difficulties expressing myself in both languages. Then, I started reading books (in Greek), and this thing went away. I started talking so much that my parents told me I 'd get a chocolate, if I stopped talking for five minutes

.

Regarding the question you've addressed me (the one about the supposed greek's superiority over english), first of all, I have to admit it is a very interesting question and a bit thought-provoking...

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to present all my views on that matter... I will, however, try to summarise the main points of my thoughts...

I don't believe in the superiority of a language over an other... It is not linguisticaly accurate to state something like that... All languages are unique and have a special significance for their speakers... The fact that a language has been spoken more centuries than an other is not actually a scientific criterion... Linguists characterise and categorise languages according to their internal structure, their morphology... They do not divide languages into superior or inferior ones... People who make such assumptions have no idea of linguistics and linguistical theories on language categorisation...

I hope my answer was satisfactory enough... As I mentioned before, there are so many things to say about this issue that I've only summarised some of them... Feel free to ask me more questions on that matter...!!!

Well, those who say that Greek is superior base that claim on the greater number of words in Greek, the more complex syntax and the nativity of most Greek words... What do you think about that?
Well, I don' t agree with the distinction "superior to infererior languages", but, well, it is not exactly superior or inferior, but linguisticly rich.

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Βασιλική!:
Ιmmaturity...:stop:

Huh? What do you mean?

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από g@ngster95:
excuse me, do you believe that a number of 3000 words is enough for the proficiency?

Ah, don' t count them like that. Amongst those 3000 words, there will be a portion you will already have learnt, or that you will already have encountered before. Or some derivatives from a word you already know. You also enrich your vocabulary when you come into contact with the living language (for example, read a book in English, listen to a song in English or watch a movie without paying attention to the subs). So counting the words you learn is not necessarily going to reflect reality.

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Lita Athens:
Good morning guys! How are you today?

Dear Crookshanks,
It doesn't matter that you didn't get the chance to answer all my questions... I understand I've asked a lot...
Anyway, though, when you'll have the time (and the courage), please answer to my post, especially to the questions concerning the way you manage to use two native languages, because it's an issue liguisticaly interesting for me...!!!
Kind regards,
Lita Athens

All right. I 'm gonna be your lab rat, if you want

.

Lita Athens · 03-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Crookshanks:
Approximately. I 'm afraid that I might disappoint you a little. I speak Dutch quite well, especially after starting my attempts to improve it. But I still have a lot to learn. In fact, I do better at English, and I am sorry for that, but that' s the truth. My language capacity in Dutch isn' t much more than the one of a ten-year-old child, maybe even less. After my sister was born, I stopped having much contact with the language, you know. She has a genetic disorder called PWS, so she couldn' t really speak Dutch (Greek took over). She now begins to learn a few words, but just a little bit, like a foreign learner, you know. I actually sometimes think that I might also be like a foreign Dutch speaker, but then I remind myself that I started speaking Dutch before Greek, and that I still think in Dutch when I am talking in Dutch.

Well, I wouldn' t say it' s easy. Dutch is a bit similar to German, though with simpler grammar rules. It is, in my opinion, a "soft"-to-listen-to language, in contrast to German, which sounds a bit harsh to the human ear. However, bear in mind that this is subjective.
It is not very difficult, either, though. It has standardised phonetic values, and a clear syntax. Of course, I have never learnt Dutch this way (with grammar/syntax rules), so I am being subjective here, too.

Oh, I alwayes prefer to talk in Dutch, so that I improve it. Well, I did have some difficulties at first, I had learnt the alphabet from a Fisher-Price game, and I already knew it when I went to primary school, but I had difficulties expressing myself in both languages. Then, I started reading books (in Greek), and this thing went away. I started talking so much that my parents told me I 'd get a chocolate, if I stopped talking for five minutes.

Well, those who say that Greek is superior base that claim on the greater number of words in Greek, the more complex syntax and the nativity of most Greek words... What do you think about that?
Well, I don' t agree with the distinction "superior to infererior languages", but, well, it is not exactly superior or inferior, but linguisticly rich.

Huh? What do you mean?

Ah, don' t count them like that. Amongst those 3000 words, there will be a portion you will already have learnt, or that you will already have encountered before. Or some derivatives from a word you already know. You also enrich your vocabulary when you come into contact with the living language (for example, read a book in English, listen to a song in English or watch a movie without paying attention to the subs). So counting the words you learn is not necessarily going to reflect reality.

All right. I 'm gonna be your lab rat, if you want.

@ Crookshanks

First of all,
Thanks for answering all my questions...!!!! I've never meant for you to feel like a lab rat....

Sorry, if you felt like I'm examining you or something, but the use of two native languages is a very interesting issue... Don't you think?

Linguistically, whether you are a fluent Dutch speaker or not, you are considered as a native Dutch speaker, because, as you mentioned in one of your previous posts, you were born to a Dutch mother.

The fact that you can use english better than Dutch doesn't lead consequently to the fact that you aren't a native Dutch speaker... Don't worry, then!!!

From what you've written, I don't have to have studied linguistics to assume that you have two native languages (greek and dutch) and a second language (english)... I'd like to underline at this point the distinction between native, second and foreign language, in order for you to clarify the meaning of these terms...

NATIVE language: the language that someone uses because he/she was born to parents speaking that language.

SECOND language: the language that someone can use with the same or approximately the same fluency as his/her native one and plays an important part in someone's education.

FOREIGN language: the language that someone uses less fluently than the afore-mentioned native or second language and isn't an important part of someone's education.

There's a trick in linguistics, in order for someone to find out the level of competence he/she has reached in a particular language: If you can dream that you're talking in a particular language, it means you've acquired it as your native or second language!:no1::no1::no1:

Keep in mind, however, that none can ever master a language!!! We all need constant improvement, even regarding our native language(s)...!!!!!!!

As far as the so - called "superiority" of greek over other european languages is concerned, I'd like to point out, first of all, that most of the european languages derive from a common ancestor, the indoeuropean language that linguists suppose it existed before the devision into all these languages spoken in the European continent, based on the great number of similarilities in grammar, syntax and vocabulary that these languages appear to be having. Secondly, we should not confuse a language's history, variety or richness with the terms "superior" or "inferior" language, that, as I highlighted in one of my previous posts, do not exist in linguistics!!!

I hope all these scientific details didn't bore you!!!

In order, though, to make our conversation less "linguistic", I'll pose you an other question, of general interest: Have you ever been in Netherlands? Would you recommend someone a visit there? What's the most worth-seeing thing for a tourist to visit?
-----------------------------------------

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από g@ngster95:
excuse me, do you believe that a number of 3000 words is enough for the proficiency?

I'm sorry I can't answer your question specificaly... I can however advise you on how to enrich your english vocabulary...
The best way for you to learn more english words, expressions, idioms and grammatical - syntactical phenomena, is to READ ENGLISH BOOKS, unadapted, of course... Choose the literature genre (novel, fiction, historic novel, science-fiction) that interests you the most and buy a few related books... If you'd like, however, to read "classic" english / american literature, I'd propose you to select books written by authors such as Oscar Wilde, Jane Austen, Charles Dickens, Robert Louis Stevenson, Kate Chopin etc...
An other way for you to enrich your vocabulary is to read english newspapers, watch movies in english (without the subtitles, of course) and, if you can, communicate with native speakers (if you know some)...

My general advice, though, is to READ (books and newspapers) AS MUCH AS YOU CAN!!!!!!!!!

Crookshanks · 03-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Lita Athens:
@ Crookshanks

First of all,
Thanks for answering all my questions...!!!! I've never meant for you to feel like a lab rat.... Sorry, if you felt like I'm examining you or something, but the use of two native languages is a very interesting issue... Don't you think?

Don' t feel sorry, I was just joking

. Yes, it is, I have heard that the part of the brain associated with language use is stronger at bilingual persons. So I guess that' s why I didn' t find it difficult to learn Engkish (sorry if I make typing errors, but I am writing from a netbook and it isn' t the handiest thing to write with

).

Linguistically, whether you are a fluent Dutch speaker or not, you are considered as a native Dutch speaker, because, as you mentioned in one of your previous posts, you were born to a Dutch mother.

Oh, well, then it is superfluous to sAY that I am delighted to her that

:thanks:. But isn' t a native speaker supposed to be most fluent with the langyage he is native to?

The fact that you can use english better than Dutch doesn't lead consequently to the fact that you aren't a native Dutch speaker... Don't worry, then!!!

From what you've written, I don't have to have studied linguistics to assume that you have two native languages (greek and dutch) and a second language (english)... I'd like to underline at this point the distinction between native, second and foreign language, in order for you to clarify the meaning of these terms...

NATIVE language: the language that someone uses because he/she was born to parents speaking that language.

SECOND language: the language that someone can use with the same or approximately the same fluency as his/her native one and plays an important part in someone's education.

Well, that' s the point that disturbs me (not because you mentioned it, but generally). I don' t even know how to write properly. I make lots of mistakes.

FOREIGN language: the language that someone uses less fluently than the afore-mentioned native or second language and isn't an important part of someone's education.

There's a trick in linguistics, in order for someone to find out the level of competence he/she has reached in a particular language: If you can dream that you're talking in a particular language, it means you've acquired it as your native or second language!:no1::no1::no1:

Well, I 've dreamt talking in Greek and English (with some tourists, it was a most amazing dream, like a fairy-tale, was it, and funny, too), but I cannot recall dreaming of speaking in Dutch.

Keep in mind, however, that none can ever master a language!!! We all need constant improvement, even regarding our native language(s)...!!!!!!!

Oh, yes, there are thousands of words that we don' t know, even in Greek

.

As far as the so - called "superiority" of greek over other european languages is concerned, I'd like to point out, first of all, that most of the european languages derive from a common ancestor, the indoeuropean language that linguists suppose it existed before the devision into all these languages spoken in the European continent, based on the great number of similarilities in grammar, syntax and vocabulary that these languages appear to be having. Secondly, we should not confuse a language's history, variety or richness with the terms "superior" or "inferior" language, that, as I highlighted in one of my previous posts, do not exist in linguistics!!!

I hope all these scientific details didn't bore you!!!

No, not at all! Wasn' t that scientific that I didn' t understand! I' d agree with you in all that, but wouldnn' t you say that Greek is, indeed, a much richer language? Without reference to superiority.

In order, though, to make our conversation less "linguistic", I'll pose you an other question, of general interest: Have you ever been in Netherlands? Would you recommend someone a visit there? What's the most worth-seeing thing for a tourist to visit?

Well, I have been in the NL some times, but I don' t remember how many

.Unfortunately, I don' t go every year there. The last time we visited my grandparents there, was this summer, but before that, it was in 2003, so I really had the time of my life there.
I would certainly recommend the NL for holidays. It is a small place but with an awful lot of things to see, and it is easy t get to all of them!

I would say that the Efteling is a very nice park to visit (it is an entertainment park, a bit like Disneyland, but with some more emphasis to Nature, google it for more details or visit www.efteling.nl). Woudrichem is also a very nice place to visit, it has retained a deeply traditional character and walking in the streets of this beautiful little town feels great., There is also slot Loevestein, a medieval castle, near the town, which you can reach with a ferry-boat. Amsterdam is also nice, but I didn' t have much time to see it as I would like. And if you ever go there, don' t waste your time and money by sailing in the canals, you won' t be able to see anything. On foot is much better, though Amsterdam is a little chaotic. I have to confess, though, that I liked Antwerpen much, much more (but Antwerpen is in Belgium

). Antwerpen is less than two hours away by train from Amsterdam Centraal, so I 'd say it' s worth visit, if you ever get to Amsterdam

kotsis1 · 03-01-10

Talking about Amsterdam,I went there about two months ago and I can say I loved it!!!It seems so romantic,and the freedom that reigns in this city makes it even cooler.Unfortunately,my stay there lasted just one day cause we were living in Brussels(we went to amst the way crook described).Well,brussels is like a big village,you know,ppl are very polite and generally i felt like it was welcoming us not like travllers but like real citizens.

I am eating eggs at the moment,which I made by myself...(Waiting for congratulations

)

teol20 · 03-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από kotsis1:
Talking about Amsterdam,I went there about two months ago and I can say I loved it!!!It seems so romantic,and the freedom that reigns in this city makes it even cooler.Unfortunately,my stay there lasted just one day cause we were living in Brussels(we went to amst the way crook described).Well,brussels is like a big village,you know,ppl are very polite and generally i felt like it was welcoming us not like travllers but like real citizens.

I am eating eggs at the moment,which I made by myself...(Waiting for congratulations)

Congratulations my dear...

Ι'm a terrible cooker.Last week I overboiled my spaghetti. :lol:

Cogito ergo sum · 03-01-10

Huh? What do you mean?

Don't you know the word?

Crookshanks · 03-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από kotsis1:
Talking about Amsterdam,I went there about two months ago and I can say I loved it!!!It seems so romantic,and the freedom that reigns in this city makes it even cooler.Unfortunately,my stay there lasted just one day cause we were living in Brussels(we went to amst the way crook described).Well,brussels is like a big village,you know,ppl are very polite and generally i felt like it was welcoming us not like travllers but like real citizens.

I am eating eggs at the moment,which I made by myself...(Waiting for congratulations)

Ah, those Belgians... I like Belgians, and their craziness...

Have you been to Antwerpen?

Did you fry or cook the eggs?

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από teol20:
Congratulations my dear...
Ι'm a terrible cooker.Last week I overboiled my spaghetti.

That doesn' t have to do with whether you are a good cook or not, it has to do with not looking at the clock and forgeting to act at the right time

.

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Βασιλική!:
Don't you know the word?

I challenge you to prove your word.

Cogito ergo sum · 03-01-10

I challenge you to prove your word.

Read your comments and you 'll probably understand.

kotsis1 · 03-01-10

I actually fried them.

No,we didn't go to Antwerpen,but we went to Paris and Amsterdam:p:p:p

I'd like to live either in Brussels or in Amsterdam,cause the way ppl behave makes me trust them,and they all seem,or anyway the ones i had contacts with,very helpful and open-minded.

Crookshanks · 03-01-10

Read your comments and you 'll probably understand.

Oh please, is that the best you can do? Huh!

I actually fried them.

Ah, most unhealthy and fattening

. But well done!

No,we didn't go to Antwerpen,but we went to Paris and Amsterdam

I'd like to live either in Brussels or in Amsterdam,cause the way ppl behave makes me trust them,and they all seem,or anyway the ones i had contacts with,very helpful and open-minded.

Cogito ergo sum · 03-01-10

Oh please, is that the best you can do? Huh!

Come on... You know I' m right cause your comments are childlike. Just read! The words aren't necessary.

kotsis1 · 03-01-10

Αρχική Δημοσίευση από Crookshanks:
Ah, most unhealthy and fattening. But well done!

No,we didn't go to Antwerpen,but we went to Paris and Amsterdam

I'd like to live either in Brussels or in Amsterdam,cause the way ppl behave makes me trust them,and they all seem,or anyway the ones i had contacts with,very helpful and open-minded.

Unhealthy or fattening,the taste is what matters in the end,so damn the fucking fats:p

Why did u actually cited what i said beforehand?

Crookshanks · 03-01-10

Go ahead. Turn the Soldier into a Queen.

V.L., do you play chess?

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